EXS24 vs Sampler: any major differences?

MrBBojahr said:

I have corrected my post above a bit, that had to do with the key and envelope scaling at that time. And I can imagine that well with Akai samples, because they had to create ready-to-play sounds from a few megabytes. If you can use enough samples (as is common today), then these options are almost irrelevant, then you hardly need them and then the differences are not audible.

A part of my sampling library still consists of the old sounds from Akai and Roland samplers. And I still use some of them today.

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Well the ESX24 was the best all in one sampler that could read and even re sample AKAI, ROLAND and EMU libraries, with the acception to EMU been a winner over all as a hardware sampler although akai samplers where popular in the 90s +.

we now have decent samplers on ipads, but on osx Akai and Roland still produce un matchable playback results, results the esx24 handled like a charm once.,

i dont get these exact results with the new sampler, you can try importing sounds from any Roland, EMU or AKAI Sample libraries to see, yet if you do the same with akai or roland software they seem to have more dynamics as well.., i shut fx off when using akai mpc beats or roland cloud stuff like the TB303 or JV synths etc., they are un matchable and “ni instruments” seem to reproduce the most decent results as a all in one sampler.

now im not sure what OS you use, been how sneaky and deceptive Apple is i cant say if the logic sampler performs better in BigSur, which is not backwards compatible, does not support older computers etc, i have a few so i remain in Catalina where its safe atm,

(Edited to the point) So maybe apple fixed all the goodies with logic on BigSur as they always do to get ppl to endlessly upgrade in hopes something will be better

GR-Productions said:

(Edited to the point) So maybe apple fixed all the goodies with logic on BigSur as they always do to get ppl to endlessly upgrade in hopes something will be better

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By the way, Logic 10.4.8 (with the EXS-24) still runs without problems under Big Sur on Intel. 10.4.8 is currently still the version I use most under Big Sur. Little by little I'm working my way into the new Logic version, but at the moment I'm still at it, because apparently also a few (older) plug-ins are no longer compatible with the new Logic version. So I'm rather switching over bit by bit. Fortunately, you can use several versions in parallel on the Mac.

I have had good experiences with Apple's feedback function so far. Currently I'm still annoyed that root keys in WAV files are not recognized by the new sampler, the EXS-24 could do it perfectly. It's not bad, because the info is usually in the file name (and that works without problems), but still a bit annoying. But other sampling functions in the new sampler are much better, the new filters sound great, other things still bother me a bit... But there too I hope that Apple reads the feedback - so far I've had rather good experiences with it.

MrBBojahr said:

By the way, Logic 10.4.8 (with the EXS-24) still runs without problems under Big Sur on Intel. 10.4.8 is currently still the version I use most under Big Sur. Little by little I'm working my way into the new Logic version, but at the moment I'm still at it, because apparently also a few (older) plug-ins are no longer compatible with the new Logic version. So I'm rather switching over bit by bit. Fortunately, you can use several versions in parallel on the Mac.

I have had good experiences with Apple's feedback function so far. Currently I'm still annoyed that root keys in WAV files are not recognized by the new sampler, the EXS-24 could do it perfectly. It's not bad, because the info is usually in the file name (and that works without problems), but still a bit annoying. But other sampling functions in the new sampler are much better, the new filters sound great, other things still bother me a bit... But there too I hope that Apple reads the feedback - so far I've had rather good experiences with it.

Click to expand...

just one of many issues
but Yea its like i said, apple will break something then bring it back on a new device or computer as if its a new thing..far from what i call innovation.

Well, time to revisit this thread as I just noticed a major flaw in the Sampler plugin vs. EXS24 running the same sounds: if you raise or lower the "Tune" knob (under Pitch), the audio quality suffers significantly. For example, if you drop it by -12 (an octave down) and play a chord an octave higher, it should sound identical, but it doesn't - it sounds terrible. The older EXS24 doesn't suffer from this. Doing the same thing there, it sounds identical when played an octave higher as it should.

I'm comparing Sampler in Logic 10.5.0 and EXS24 in MainStage 3.4.3. I noticed the Sample Rate conversion preference (Normal or Best) is gone in recent versions of Logic/Sampler - could that have something to do with it I wonder?

Whatever the case, this is bizarre! Interestingly, when you drop an octave on the MIDI Thru parameter and play an octave higher, that has no effect - it sounds as it should. It's only when you change the coarse tune in the Sampler plugin itself that the audio quality bombs...

whinecellar said:

For example, if you drop it by -12 (an octave down) and play a chord an octave higher, it should sound identical, but it doesn't - it sounds terrible. The older EXS24 doesn't suffer from this. Doing the same thing there, it sounds identical when played an octave higher as it should.

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Are you sure the "Follow Tempo" icon is not selected? The EXS didn't offer this feature and is does time stretching to keep the tempo of the sample constant independent from the pitch at the expense of audio quality.

Saxer said:

Are you sure the "Follow Tempo" icon is not selected? The EXS didn't offer this feature and is does time stretching to keep the tempo of the sample constant independent from the pitch at the expense of audio quality.

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Yep, it's not selected. Sent to my contacts on the Logic team and they've already confirmed, so hopefully a fix will be on their radar.

whinecellar said:

Well, time to revisit this thread as I just noticed a major flaw in the Sampler plugin vs. EXS24 running the same sounds: if you raise or lower the "Tune" knob (under Pitch), the audio quality suffers significantly. For example, if you drop it by -12 (an octave down) and play a chord an octave higher, it should sound identical, but it doesn't - it sounds terrible. The older EXS24 doesn't suffer from this. Doing the same thing there, it sounds identical when played an octave higher as it should.

I'm comparing Sampler in Logic 10.5.0 and EXS24 in MainStage 3.4.3. I noticed the Sample Rate conversion preference (Normal or Best) is gone in recent versions of Logic/Sampler - could that have something to do with it I wonder?

Whatever the case, this is bizarre! Interestingly, when you drop an octave on the MIDI Thru parameter and play an octave higher, that has no effect - it sounds as it should. It's only when you change the coarse tune in the Sampler plugin itself that the audio quality bombs...

Click to expand...

I might misunderstand this (and I most likely do, considering who I'm talking with and the fact that the Logic team confirmed it ), but in my head, tune would be pitching down/up a sample and not transposing the incoming MIDI right? So if you play a sample at say C0, then tune down -12 and play at C1, you would now play the C1 sample that is pitched down -12 and not the original C0, so they shouldn't sound identical, unless the built in pitch/time stretching is crazy good. Or are we talking an already mapped and stretched single sample?

Petter Rong said:

I might misunderstand this (and I most likely do, considering who I'm talking with and the fact that the Logic team confirmed it ), but in my head, tune would be pitching down/up a sample and not transposing the incoming MIDI right? So if you play a sample at say C0, then tune down -12 and play at C1, you would now play the C1 sample that is pitched down -12 and not the original C0, so they shouldn't sound identical, unless the built in pitch/time stretching is crazy good. Or are we talking an already mapped and stretched single sample?

Click to expand...

All I know is, it sounds PERFECT in the older EXS24 regardless of tuning, transpose, or any combination of the two: but in Sampler, it sounds atrocious. Glad they are aware of it!

@A3D2 @Saxer @Alex Fraser @charlieclouser @ScarletJerry @GR-Productions @whinecellar @jsheaucsb @MrBBojahr

I apologize for tagging so many of you kind folks, but I am thrilled to find this site and so many engaged users interested in these kinds of differences. This thread was one of the only ones I found online regarding the subject.

Anyway, after migrating from Logic 10.4 on my Intel Mac to a modern Apple Silicon Logic environment,
I experienced issues as a result of how Sampler interpreted a number of EXS instrument instances. The audible variances were pitch based and often completely broke the nature of the instrument sound.

It wasn’t until I opened the same project, side-by-side, on an Intel iMac (running Logic 10.4.3) and an M1 Mini (running Logic 10.7.4), and tested all the parameters on both the EXS24 and Sampler, that I identified the EXS24 parameter/s that do not translate to Sampler.

All of my project EXS24 instruments that contain the below active LFO 1/Pitch modulation parameter in addition to either LFO 1 decay or delay lack a ‘morphing-pitch’ sound when opened with Sampler. With the EXS24, the LFO 1 decay/delay had a lovely pitch-bending sound (in conjunction with this specific modulation matrix parameter) with the starting pitch being determined by the amount slider position/s. This does not occur in Sampler and it has totally upended some very creative EXS instances that employed this relationship. I cannot be sure where the source of the issue originates, or whether a bad LFO 1 decay/delay translation impacts other potential modulation-matrix parameters, but I can confirm that all of my problematic project instruments contained a combination of the below two parameters:


Now, Sampler LFOs do not have a “decay” or “delay” parameter, but what has taken their place is a single LFO “Fade” parameter that has two corresponding toggle buttons that indicate whether the fade occurs at the start or the end of the LFO. I can see that the EXS24 LFO decay/delay parameter values are interpreted as the new Sampler LFO Fade parameter values, but Sampler does not behave in the same way as decay and delay did in the EXS24 or at least does not interact identically with the LFO 1/Pitch/Ctrl #1 Mod Matrix parameter.

I submitted this issue to Logic/Apple, but I can reasonably have no expectation of a response or even a fix.

To confirm my findings, as well as prepare examples for Apple to review, I created a new Logic 10.4.3 project with the stock, factory Grand Piano+Pad EXS instrument and proceeded to duplicate the track nearly a dozen times, each time tweaking a minimal amount of parameters so that I could take note of when exactly Sampler playback goes awry. I then bounced an example of each track to confirm how EXS24 plays each instrument and imported those files into the same project so that the project can be opened in the latest Logic and the EXS24 bounce be compared to how Sampler plays back the same MIDI region for each track.

For those of you brave enough to download the test/example Logic project that I shared with Apple, please check it out here:

For everyone else to hear what I mean, click the following link to playback an in-browser audio comparison (the 1st set of three notes are played back in EXS24 and the 2nd set of three notes are played back in Sampler):

I would love to know if anyone has experienced/noticed this and would certainly welcome suggested solutions or workarounds. The examples I am sharing are super simplistic, but they help define signature sounds in more complex EXS instruments. The version of Logic I am currently using is 10.7.4. I would be amazed if this issue didn't exist for folks with the latest version, but I have been hesitant to update Logic until I am between projects. Would love to hear any thoughts on the matter.

WellWellWell said:

@A3D2 @Saxer @Alex Fraser @charlieclouser @ScarletJerry @GR-Productions @whinecellar @jsheaucsb @MrBBojahr

I apologize for tagging so many of you kind folks, but I am thrilled to find this site and so many engaged users interested in these kinds of differences. This thread was one of the only ones I found online regarding the subject.

Anyway, after migrating from Logic 10.4 on my Intel Mac to a modern Apple Silicon Logic environment,
I experienced issues as a result of how Sampler interpreted a number of EXS instrument instances. The audible variances were pitch based and often completely broke the nature of the instrument sound.

It wasn’t until I opened the same project, side-by-side, on an Intel iMac (running Logic 10.4.3) and an M1 Mini (running Logic 10.7.4), and tested all the parameters on both the EXS24 and Sampler, that I identified the EXS24 parameter/s that do not translate to Sampler.

All of my project EXS24 instruments that contain the below active LFO 1/Pitch modulation parameter in addition to either LFO 1 decay or delay lack a ‘morphing-pitch’ sound when opened with Sampler. With the EXS24, the LFO 1 decay/delay had a lovely pitch-bending sound (in conjunction with this specific modulation matrix parameter) with the starting pitch being determined by the amount slider position/s. This does not occur in Sampler and it has totally upended some very creative EXS instances that employed this relationship. I cannot be sure where the source of the issue originates, or whether a bad LFO 1 decay/delay translation impacts other potential modulation-matrix parameters, but I can confirm that all of my problematic project instruments contained a combination of the below two parameters:


Now, Sampler LFOs do not have a “decay” or “delay” parameter, but what has taken their place is a single LFO “Fade” parameter that has two corresponding toggle buttons that indicate whether the fade occurs at the start or the end of the LFO. I can see that the EXS24 LFO decay/delay parameter values are interpreted as the new Sampler LFO Fade parameter values, but Sampler does not behave in the same way as decay and delay did in the EXS24 or at least does not interact identically with the LFO 1/Pitch/Ctrl #1 Mod Matrix parameter.

I submitted this issue to Logic/Apple, but I can reasonably have no expectation of a response or even a fix.

To confirm my findings, as well as prepare examples for Apple to review, I created a new Logic 10.4.3 project with the stock, factory Grand Piano+Pad EXS instrument and proceeded to duplicate the track nearly a dozen times, each time tweaking a minimal amount of parameters so that I could take note of when exactly Sampler playback goes awry. I then bounced an example of each track to confirm how EXS24 plays each instrument and imported those files into the same project so that the project can be opened in the latest Logic and the EXS24 bounce be compared to how Sampler plays back the same MIDI region for each track.

For those of you brave enough to download the test/example Logic project that I shared with Apple, please check it out here:

EXS24-to-Sampler LFO 1 Pitch Issue.zip

Visit this link to download: EXS24-to-Sampler LFO 1 Pitch Issue.zip

files.fm

For everyone else to hear what I mean, click the following link to playback an in-browser audio comparison (the 1st set of three notes are played back in EXS24 and the 2nd set of three notes are played back in Sampler):

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I would love to know if anyone has experienced/noticed this and would certainly welcome suggested solutions or workarounds. The examples I am sharing are super simplistic, but they help define signature sounds in more complex EXS instruments. The version of Logic I am currently using is 10.7.4. I would be amazed if this issue didn't exist for folks with the latest version, but I have been hesitant to update Logic until I am between projects. Would love to hear any thoughts on the matter.

Click to expand...

Oh man, I'll have to look into this. I've developed a handful of commercial sample libraries that start out in EXS/Sampler, so it would be a nightmare to find that there are any major differences between the two...