Do composers/producers need to be able to mix surround?
- Thread starter Hunter123
- Start date
Scoremixer
Active Member
The vast majority of trailer/library music is mixed in stereo. If a bespoke piece of music is commissioned for a particular trailer it's more likely that it will receive a dedicated surround mix.
The higher end trailer libraries tend to get their stuff mixed (in stereo) by specialists, but there are also composing teams that have the chops to do it themselves and get good results.
As long as you make a good set of stems alongside your full mix, you should be covered for future usage possibilities. Bear in mind that there's probably more chance of having your track used as underscore to an episode of reality TV than being selected to accompany a major film trailer, so getting a surround mix straight off the bat probably isn't a sensible use of budget!
The higher end trailer libraries tend to get their stuff mixed (in stereo) by specialists, but there are also composing teams that have the chops to do it themselves and get good results.
As long as you make a good set of stems alongside your full mix, you should be covered for future usage possibilities. Bear in mind that there's probably more chance of having your track used as underscore to an episode of reality TV than being selected to accompany a major film trailer, so getting a surround mix straight off the bat probably isn't a sensible use of budget!
OP
OP
Hunter123
Active Member
That makes more sense and takes the pressure off from learning surround mixing techniques, I have to work on my normal stereo mixing first anyway
. Thank you!givemenoughrope
Senior Member
What would your stems be approximately? And would they include separate tracks as dry or reverb returns? I hear/read about mixers sometimes just adding reverb to existing tracks for the surround channels as a quick and dirty approach but if you stems already have a layer of reverb...? Maybe I’m overthinking this.
OP
OP
Hunter123
Active Member
If you go to mostly any of the production music websites you can listen to the tracks. For example Revolt Production Music-click on an album, click on the track options and then the track details it will show the stems (alternative versions of this track). I think what they're looking for is just the separate instrument tracks or bus tracks but I'm not totally sure. Maybe Scoremixer would know?
Scoremixer
Active Member
Delivery requirements for the library companies are different to delivery requirements for yourself! Libraries might want cut down versions, beds, drone-only etc but if you want useful stems that a dubber could use to remix your track with then you'll have to go deeper than that (full sets of stems are also very useful for creating the above deliverables for the library companies, probably easier than re-arranging in your DAW with MIDI).
Obviously stems will vary massively based on what you're doing, but if you want to provide the rolls royce service on a full fat hybrid orchestral track they might look something like:
Strings Long
Strings Short
WW
Brass
Orch FX
PercLow
PercHi
PercCymbals
PercTuned
Drums
Plucked
Piano/Keys
Bass
PadsLo
PadsHi
SynthLo
SynthHi
FX
Choir
Solos
Just provide mixed stems as is, ie don't worry about separate dry/wet stems unless you've got something really crazy or controversial going on.
benmrx
Senior Member
As someone whose workload is roughly 30% composing and 70% sound design/mixing for TV, Film, Ads, etc. I would absolutely NOT want the composer to send me a baked surround mix. If the project is to be done in surround, send the stems and let the mixer put it in surround.
Not sure on deliverables for libraries. Though I assume it can be a case by case basis depending on who you're dealing with.
Not sure on deliverables for libraries. Though I assume it can be a case by case basis depending on who you're dealing with.
synthetic
Senior Member
They’re going to remix the score in 7.1 on the stage? I doubt it, not well.
Of course if you can afford a mixer then use that person for the surround mix. But surround mixing is a skill that can be learned. Every DVD ends with a suite of the film’s best music in surround. Get a surround monitoring controller (I have the old SMC), mute the LR, and listen again to what is being panned to the surrounds. It’s easy to provide a stereo mix and/or stems if they really want to remix it. But most dub mixers want to pull up (then down!) the faders on the music.
Of course if you can afford a mixer then use that person for the surround mix. But surround mixing is a skill that can be learned. Every DVD ends with a suite of the film’s best music in surround. Get a surround monitoring controller (I have the old SMC), mute the LR, and listen again to what is being panned to the surrounds. It’s easy to provide a stereo mix and/or stems if they really want to remix it. But most dub mixers want to pull up (then down!) the faders on the music.
benmrx
Senior Member
It's not a remix, you're just providing stems as per usual. At least in my world, the mixer should be able to keep your stems at unity and have that replicate your mix. You're not sending them all the raw tracks. The last film I mixed was a challenge regarding the music because I only had a single, full mix of the music. Trying to add reverb to the strings, but only the rears, and only to create a specific transitional element that melded with SFX/backgrounds was a real PIA because I didn't want that same verb on the big/deep/epic drums or guitars.
This is especially important (IMO) when the music is diegetic. Imagine you write a cue where a character is in the car. The music is suppose to sound like it's coming from the car stereo, but then..., after an 'important line of dialogue' the music transitions to a full spectrum mix. I would absolutely not want that cue sent to me as a single surround mix.
Then again, I'm not working in big LA dub stages.
Paul Grymaud
Active Member
Not necessarily
Scoremixer
Active Member
For the avoidance of doubt to anyone who may be reading this… Errbody be wanting stems. Editorial want stems. Mixers want stems (maybe not as many as editorial, but while you’re at it you may as well stem that shit wide). Unless you’re John Williams, or intend to write exclusively orchestral music for French films, people will be expecting stems, and not providing them can hurt your chances of a) winning the work in the first place b) getting a sympathetic mix of your work vs. all the other stuff going on in a dub.
If, as a composer, you feel you can provide 12+ 5.1 mixed stems on a trailer or library music track without running into CPU, workflow, time or sheer headfuck limitations and you trust your monitoring and the calibration of said monitoring then by all means have at it and mix in surround. To my mind though, that gives a very poor cost/benefit ratio unless you’re specifically being asked to provide a 5.1 mix. The people pulling library tracks off the shelves to sync to picture would, in almost all circumstances, rather have a bunch of useable stereo stems than a single 5.1 mix, even if the final destination is a theatre (which, unless you’re an established name trailer composer, it’s unlikely to be, for now).
If, as a composer, you feel you can provide 12+ 5.1 mixed stems on a trailer or library music track without running into CPU, workflow, time or sheer headfuck limitations and you trust your monitoring and the calibration of said monitoring then by all means have at it and mix in surround. To my mind though, that gives a very poor cost/benefit ratio unless you’re specifically being asked to provide a 5.1 mix. The people pulling library tracks off the shelves to sync to picture would, in almost all circumstances, rather have a bunch of useable stereo stems than a single 5.1 mix, even if the final destination is a theatre (which, unless you’re an established name trailer composer, it’s unlikely to be, for now).
aaronventure
Senior Member
Is music mostly on FR FL RR RL channels, or is there stuff in the center speaker as well (maybe a mono fold-down of the entire mix)?
Scoremixer
Active Member
If you've got real orchestra on a track, then center has the Decca tree C mic in it. Lots of engineers pan sectional spot mics across the LCR as well, so there'll be some V2/Vla, Woodwind etc spots in there too. If you've recorded other real instruments with a view to a 5.1 mix, it's common to put up LCR room mics in order to have something relevant to populate the centre channel with.
It's a slightly different situation if you're just working with essentially stereo tracks of programmed synths/samples. Normally all that ends up in the centre in that scenario is 5.1 reverbs and maybe an extrapolated centre if you've used an upmixer on anything. Definitely not a foldown of the entire mix- that's a quick way to ensure narrowness.
Centre channel is definitely controversial, but having something meaningful in there really helps if (and when) the dubbing mixers pull the LR of the 5.1 mix rearwards in the theatre to clear out screen space for SFX etc- it helps keeps the music perceptually anchored towards the front.
JohnG
Senior Member
@Scoremixer is spot on here.
For a short while, libraries were mixing in 5.1 but I understand the reason they seem to have dropped it is that their tracks get auditioned in stereo, so it's the stereo mix that really matters.
As score mixer has written, you will want to stem things out in a detailed way -- that's a good list in his post above -- so that they can send whatever they want to surrounds. Some people say "never put anything in the sub, never put anything in the centre" but I've seen others (including H. Zimmer) argue differently about that.
If I have to deliver 5.1 I ask my engineer to do it. He knows what he's doing; I'm just the composer.
For a short while, libraries were mixing in 5.1 but I understand the reason they seem to have dropped it is that their tracks get auditioned in stereo, so it's the stereo mix that really matters.
As score mixer has written, you will want to stem things out in a detailed way -- that's a good list in his post above -- so that they can send whatever they want to surrounds. Some people say "never put anything in the sub, never put anything in the centre" but I've seen others (including H. Zimmer) argue differently about that.
If I have to deliver 5.1 I ask my engineer to do it. He knows what he's doing; I'm just the composer.
aaronventure
Senior Member
Thanks for the write-up, many things are clear now!
The best surround mixes I've heard only use the rear speakers for depth, i.e. they add a little of what you're hearing in front of you to the back to move certain things forward.
Well, I don't want to say they *only* use the surrounds for depth, but anything else is an occasional effect.
Well, I don't want to say they *only* use the surrounds for depth, but anything else is an occasional effect.
I am picking up this slightly old thread with a slightly different perspective on the question.
What if, as a (film and theatre) music composer, I am required to include surround at an early stage in the creative composition and narrative material.
It is happening so in a music course I am following. The Maestro invites to use the full potential of a 5+1 studio as expressive mean (experimenting also with Dolby Atmos plugin in our DAW). To be clear: this is before mixing engineers step in the process and take the lead of the optimisation. As much as I enjoy this a lot, I also experience some difficulties because most of us (students) have a standard stereo home studio setup.
In my case I would be happy to upgrade my home studio. Because I enjoy and see big creative potential. But I also want to keep my feet solidly on the ground. So I am lost in choosing what type of setup to aim for. Like 5+1, 7+1 (etcetera... and I don't even consider up to Dolby Atmos level setups, big no for several reasons).
For me, I imagine a near future where 50% of the works I do are perfectly fine in stereo, and the rest 50% will be natively surround. How far shall I push my next studio setup?
Imho, 5+1 seems the most basic and at the same time the most cost-effective way to create in surround.
Do you people see the problem I am trying to explain, and does anyone has advice or point of view?
What if, as a (film and theatre) music composer, I am required to include surround at an early stage in the creative composition and narrative material.
It is happening so in a music course I am following. The Maestro invites to use the full potential of a 5+1 studio as expressive mean (experimenting also with Dolby Atmos plugin in our DAW). To be clear: this is before mixing engineers step in the process and take the lead of the optimisation. As much as I enjoy this a lot, I also experience some difficulties because most of us (students) have a standard stereo home studio setup.
In my case I would be happy to upgrade my home studio. Because I enjoy and see big creative potential. But I also want to keep my feet solidly on the ground. So I am lost in choosing what type of setup to aim for. Like 5+1, 7+1 (etcetera... and I don't even consider up to Dolby Atmos level setups, big no for several reasons).
For me, I imagine a near future where 50% of the works I do are perfectly fine in stereo, and the rest 50% will be natively surround. How far shall I push my next studio setup?
Imho, 5+1 seems the most basic and at the same time the most cost-effective way to create in surround.
Do you people see the problem I am trying to explain, and does anyone has advice or point of view?
Aymara
Member
It‘s less of a problem, when you use Dolby Atmos and start with binaural listening.
Advantage: You don‘t need a surround system at all.
Downside: Binaural might sound „slightly” different than an Atmos surround system.
But you can start digging deeper not only theoretically, but also by experience, which is required to understand the „problems” in Atmos and surround in general, e.g. placing of reverb AND understanding especially the difficulty of mastering with Atmos objects.
Thinking of buying a surround system is the last step in my opinion. BTW … I think surround will be more and more replaced by Atmos, especially using headphones, keywords: Atmos music and film streaming, e.g. with an Apple TV and Apple Airpods Max. So think wisely about what you will buy.
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