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What is your mixing strategy with Synchron libs?

blaggins

Senior Member
I've been using the Synchron libs as the main part of my "template" for a while now (WW, Brass, Percussion, and Duality Strings) but I feel a bit stuck on a mixing strategy. What I have been doing is working "ok" I think, but I'm wondering if there's a more optimal way to set things up and get better positioning and a better default sound. I realize there is a LOT that goes into getting a polished finished product, including effects, EQ, reverb, etc. and I'm curious what works for those of you that are also using Synchron libs as their default orchestral instruments. Anyone have a favorite FX chain or reverb strategy?

Here's what I pretty much always end up doing:

Within a VEPro Instance (say Strings)
* Set all the instruments to "Classic" or Surround-downmixed-to-stereo-Classic presets
* Turn off the Synchron Player Reverb but leave Reverb channel ENABLED in the Synchron player
* Route the Reverb channel in the Player to output 2
* Apply an instrument-specific EQ in VEPro (as needed), same EQ settings for both MASTER and AUX channels for each instrument
* Bus the various channels in VEPro into MASTER (all outputs 1) and AUX (all outputs 2)

Then in Cubase I have two Stereo inputs from each VEPro Instance which I bus separately. One bus (the main one, or the Strings bus from the diagram below) is where I put all my inserts (like a dynamic EQ, probably Gullfoss, maybe a bit of saturation, or a compressor for the Percussion, etc.) and the other channel which I'm called Reverb Bus in the diagram below is to collect all the "Reverb Mixes" and send them to an instance of Cinematic Rooms. This is basically my way of using my own reverb (CR) in place of the reverb that comes with the Synchron Player. My Reverb Bus is always 100% wet and the volume is very quiet compared to the Main Bus, it's really just there to add back in that extra signal you lose if you just turn off the Synchron Player reverb and also disable that channel in the player (for example, if you just turn it off, you are favoring the Room mics over a blended and reverb-ed mix of Close, Mid, and Room mics, since the room is never sent to the internal reverb, but Close and Mids usually are at varying levels).

I've created a quick little visual:

1707174517191.png

All that being said, I'm not messing with the mic levels per instrument in the Synchron Player, they all get set to the Classic mix defaults. I also don't try to mess with panning b/c I feel like I would be messing with the carefully crafted presets and would likely end up in a crappier place than I started. But I do feel like I might be leaving a lot of functionality on the "floor" as it were since there are so many mixer configs possible and so many provided presets that I never use.

Is it recommended to use different mixes as starting points to create depth? Say using Close, Classic, and Distant mixes on different instrument groups to create depth? Or is that a stupid idea?

Do folks find themselves changing the panning to create a wider soundstage? Anyone strongly preferring the Wide mix over the Classic one?

I would take any pointers that have been yielding good mixes from you fellow Synchron library users. Thanks so much!
 
If you feel the need to route all the reverbs to its own channel, then this is fine. Otherwise, it's just an extra step that you might not need to do 99% of the time.
 
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If you feel the need to route all the reverbs to its own channel, then this is fine. Otherwise, it's just an extra step that you might not need to do 99% of the time.
I'm not sure that I've noticed a big difference to be honest... but it was suggested by Bernd Mazagg (head recording engineer at VSL) on an Instagram post a while back:

I'm not quite sure I understand the advantages, but it seemed to me that it *might* create greater clarity... Here's my thinking.

By using the Reverb send instead or the complete mix on each instrument, I'm applying my own reverb to only the Close and Mid mics, but not the room mics. I'm thinking that the room mic is already very wet and already has all the early reflection and reverberation it needs, so if I "double up" on applying a reverb to the room mic, then maybe I'm just creating mud. That was my thought, so I figured I'd give it a go in my template.

The only crappy part really is that any instrument specific EQ or processing done on a per-channel basis in VEPro has to be duplicated on both output channels of each player instance. Not a huge headache but I have been wondering if I really NEED to do it this way. Honestly it would help me to understand what the real advantages *could* be of the approach, I'm not sure if I've correctly understood them.
 
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I route back from VEP one main, one room and several close return stereo pairs for each orchestral section separated, for a total of 14 stereo returns in my case. I then add different levels of reverb send and mix at taste. I find this easier than mixing in VEPro especially to mix and match with other libraries / rooms.
 
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I mix in VE Pro because I use my template with either Cubase or Dorico, so I have group tracks set up for my stems (strings, brass, winds, percussion, keys, synths) in VE Pro and just send a single downmix back to Dorico/Cubase. That way if I move the MIDI from one program to the other, I can load up the same VE Pro project and have everything continue to sound identical. Then I'm not really using the Dorico mixer or Cubase mixer at all.
 
I first make custom mixes as the default mixes tend to sound too close for most applications. At least every time I've tweaked a composer template I've have to change the mics.

Then I disable every reverb and do the EQ and reverb in the DAW itself.
 
I first make custom mixes as the default mixes tend to sound too close for most applications. At least every time I've tweaked a composer template I've have to change the mics.

Then I disable every reverb and do the EQ and reverb in the DAW itself.
I would buy custom Synchron MixPresets in an instant! :) while stock ones are good, I believe they surely can be even better. I also think most of them are pretty close and ambient ones are little undetailed. I like how Spitfire ready mixes sound in their libs, save time a lot and sound great out of the box.
 
I would buy custom Synchron MixPresets in an instant! :) while stock ones are good, I believe they surely can be even better. I also think most of them are pretty close and ambient ones are little undetailed. I like how Spitfire ready mixes sound in their libs, save time a lot and sound great out of the box.
Many libraries are held back by their default mixes.

Like OT having their mono close mics on in most libraries (The tree has that sharpness already!).
Like Afflatus brass that sounds way closer than it should by default. It's actually quite a decent room.
Or CSB having close mics on as well in stock mixes when just room and a bit of main sounds way more ''symphonic'' and appropriate for the section sizes.

Spitfire is particularly good in that area thanks to Simon Rhodes.
 
@Joël Dollié do you have a go-to set of mics and levels that you like to use as a kind of "default orchestral mix" that you like the sound of (with the Synchron libs)? Is it very dependent on the production, or is there a pattern like "less mids, more room, lower the close mics, use more ribbons, etc. etc..."?
 
When it comes to finding the right mix, start with the Decca Tree only and then mix in other mics (per instrument) as the library or the instrument demands. Instruments that are further away typically need more room mic, soloistic ones can probably use some overhead mics in addition to the tree/main. But you really have to pay attention to how the tree signal sounds in the first place. If it already sounds very clear and near, you might even need to reduce it in favor of some surround or outrigger mic to get the right balance. You can get very far with mixing and balancing mic signals only, and my recommendation is doing that extensively before adding EQ and reverb and all.

In Synchron (I use Brass and some WW) I find myself using the Distant or Ambient presets more often than others, and usually I'm restricting myself to Main-C, Main and Surround mics. I can look up my particular mic levels if you're interested.
 
@Joël Dollié do you have a go-to set of mics and levels that you like to use as a kind of "default orchestral mix" that you like the sound of (with the Synchron libs)? Is it very dependent on the production, or is there a pattern like "less mids, more room, lower the close mics, use more ribbons, etc. etc..."?
Not so much dependant on the production even though it is a little bit.. There isn't so much a pattern as every library sounds different. I know that the synchron harp has a different mix to the strings, I forgot which settings I use exactly but I tweak quite a bit. All I know is that the sound can be improved dramatically. I've done maybe a dozen of templates for people that use synchron stuff. Also I think some people don't have all the mics (you can pay to get more mics? Not sure) So I've done some slightly different mixes depending on the person, also depending on taste.
 
Not so much dependant on the production even though it is a little bit.. There isn't so much a pattern as every library sounds different. I know that the synchron harp has a different mix to the strings, I forgot which settings I use exactly but I tweak quite a bit. All I know is that the sound can be improved dramatically. I've done maybe a dozen of templates for people that use synchron stuff. Also I think some people don't have all the mics (you can pay to get more mics? Not sure) So I've done some slightly different mixes depending on the person, also depending on taste.
Very interesting! I'm always playing with my template on basically every little thing I finish (mostly in terms of EQ changes in VEPro but sometimes reverb and bus processing changes in Cubase as well) but I do really wonder if there could be a kind of "master template" that I could arrive at where I can stop tweaking things and mostly just rely on the default sound b/c it's already what I'm looking for... the quest continues.

As far as mics, there are differences. Basically there are two "tiers" of Synchron libs, and the only difference is that the more expensive tier comes with extra mics, usually surround mic recordings and stereo downmixes of the surround positions, but sometimes extra close mics too.

A perhaps related question for everyone, what is your favorite reference recording for Synchron? There are QUITE a few game and film scores recorded there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchron_Stage_Vienna#List_of_projects seems to have a nice list of recent ones).

I'm starting to think I should pick one of these soundtracks and start using a couple of tracks as a references for my own mixes, but there is quite a bit to music to listen though. I think I want something using a full orchestral score, but mixed without a crapload of processing to leave the synchron sound intact, but also light on the synths and sound design-side because it'll be harder to use those as a reference? Anyway if I happen across one I'll post an update, but I'd love to know if anyone is already using a particular soundtrack for references (for mixing purposes).
 
This is an interesting thread and will follow it closely. Thanks @blaggins for the list of projects recorded at the synchron stage. I use MIR and default to Synchron stage so I'll go through this list and pick likely pieces that match the typical style I write and see if that helps. So far Cinderella (Michael Danna) and Christmas Chronicles 2 are good examples for me (orchestral parts and examples I could find on YouTube). Great ideas so far.
 
Hello
I'm posting a video here that shows a brief overview of all the steps involved in a music production with libraries and the SYNCHRON player, right up to mixing. Maybe some of you can take a few things out of the whole production chain and try it out. At least that's my hope.

As always, there is not just one way, but many that lead to the goal. The following video shows one of these possible paths: from the beginning (midi file) to the end (final mix) on... and this with 6 different pieces of music.

Have fun
Beat



Some more info here...
 
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I've been using the Synchron libs as the main part of my "template" for a while now (WW, Brass, Percussion, and Duality Strings) but I feel a bit stuck on a mixing strategy. What I have been doing is working "ok" I think, but I'm wondering if there's a more optimal way to set things up and get better positioning and a better default sound. I realize there is a LOT that goes into getting a polished finished product, including effects, EQ, reverb, etc. and I'm curious what works for those of you that are also using Synchron libs as their default orchestral instruments. Anyone have a favorite FX chain or reverb strategy?

Here's what I pretty much always end up doing:

Within a VEPro Instance (say Strings)
* Set all the instruments to "Classic" or Surround-downmixed-to-stereo-Classic presets
* Turn off the Synchron Player Reverb but leave Reverb channel ENABLED in the Synchron player
* Route the Reverb channel in the Player to output 2
* Apply an instrument-specific EQ in VEPro (as needed), same EQ settings for both MASTER and AUX channels for each instrument
* Bus the various channels in VEPro into MASTER (all outputs 1) and AUX (all outputs 2)

Then in Cubase I have two Stereo inputs from each VEPro Instance which I bus separately. One bus (the main one, or the Strings bus from the diagram below) is where I put all my inserts (like a dynamic EQ, probably Gullfoss, maybe a bit of saturation, or a compressor for the Percussion, etc.) and the other channel which I'm called Reverb Bus in the diagram below is to collect all the "Reverb Mixes" and send them to an instance of Cinematic Rooms. This is basically my way of using my own reverb (CR) in place of the reverb that comes with the Synchron Player. My Reverb Bus is always 100% wet and the volume is very quiet compared to the Main Bus, it's really just there to add back in that extra signal you lose if you just turn off the Synchron Player reverb and also disable that channel in the player (for example, if you just turn it off, you are favoring the Room mics over a blended and reverb-ed mix of Close, Mid, and Room mics, since the room is never sent to the internal reverb, but Close and Mids usually are at varying levels).

I've created a quick little visual:

1707174517191.png

All that being said, I'm not messing with the mic levels per instrument in the Synchron Player, they all get set to the Classic mix defaults. I also don't try to mess with panning b/c I feel like I would be messing with the carefully crafted presets and would likely end up in a crappier place than I started. But I do feel like I might be leaving a lot of functionality on the "floor" as it were since there are so many mixer configs possible and so many provided presets that I never use.

Is it recommended to use different mixes as starting points to create depth? Say using Close, Classic, and Distant mixes on different instrument groups to create depth? Or is that a stupid idea?

Do folks find themselves changing the panning to create a wider soundstage? Anyone strongly preferring the Wide mix over the Classic one?

I would take any pointers that have been yielding good mixes from you fellow Synchron library users. Thanks so much!
I don't use a Vienna Ensemble in the video above. I connect each midi instrument (violin 1, violin 2, viola,...) directly to the corresponding midi track. *)

If you work with synchronous presets, you could switch off the additional reverb (loaded by the presets) in each SYNCHRON player. This has the effect that the instruments are positioned in the room (in the panorama and in the room depth), but each instrument does not have its own reverb tail. This would ultimately lead to a somewhat thicker mixing result in the end.
But: Finally, by installing a reverb plug-in in the output channel of your DAW and adding some tail as desired (e.g. with a reverb from the DAW), the whole orchestra (the mix) will be nicely unified.

About different Presets
If you want strings a little more at the front of the mix and wind instruments a little further back, you can choose different presets without any problem. However, it is best to switch off the additional reverb in each case.

And finally
Presets are only ever as good as they were when they were created in the situation at the time. They are therefore rarely really optimal in the current situation. Example? You want to play a string orchestra piece and select the "Classic" preset. The strings are panned far too far to the left and right. This is because the preset is actually intended for the centre to be "filled" by wind instruments and percussion. Only for strings alone would you have to move the instruments a little towards the centre... What do I mean by that? Have the courage to adjust presets (delete EQs, change panner settings, etc.)

Beat



*) If the libraries are not on another computer, you don't necessarily have to use a Vienna Ensemble unit. A VE is also useful if you want to save entire orchestral sections mixed and ready to use in another project. Otherwise, you can make it easy for yourself and connect the SYNCHRON players directly to midi tracks, as you usually do with other VST instruments.
 
Hello
I'm posting a video here that shows a brief overview of all the steps involved in a music production with libraries and the SYNCHRON player, right up to mixing. Maybe some of you can take a few things out of the whole production chain and try it out. At least that's my hope.

As always, there is not just one way, but many that lead to the goal. The following video shows one of these possible paths: from the beginning (midi file) to the end (final mix) on... and this with 6 different pieces of music.

Have fun
Beat



Some more info here...

Thanks Beat. Love the work and time you put into your videos. Always appreciated.
 
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